Hello, my name is Parrotfella and I am a new player to Running With Rifles.
On a whim, with little 'game research', I just bought this game a few weeks ago, and I've been thoroughly enjoying it.

I understand this game is being produced by only 2 game developers.
This post is intended to provide a objective view into a new players first 20 hour's experience with playing this game, which will highlight minor and critical game play faults, as well as a few matters of personal opinion that deserve a looking at. This post also ignores finer details, like what costs a rare gun might be surrounding a specific example. It's assumed that ideas will be taken at 'big-picture' value and that details can be hashed out later.

I'm a big fan of the game, and I wouldn't be speaking up unless I cared about what the game will be like months down the road.



So let's get right to it: What should we change about rare guns and how they're handled in-game to players? (*in invasion-coop)

Rare guns are a real sad story for running with rifles players. Most of them never use rares, some never get a chance, others finally claim what they've earned only to lose it after a few moments of gunfire, and some finally still have their items stolen by other players. Many people like myself just wind up storing them and they collect dust, except for the few, shining elite that can live long enough to use the guns to their full potential.

Let's breakdown rare guns by how they fit in to the game.

- Rare guns can't be 'brought with you' after death, leading to a multitude of problems, chiefly drama. Not only is the drama severe enough to result in meta-complaints, its entirely preventable. (we have people complaining about other people complaining, like I am here)
- Rare guns are not worth much more RP than random loot, but worth quite a bit to players, creating a demand that results in: tk's, nade spam, and whiney chat sob stories of such and such stealing their gun or not saving it or whatever.
- From a business, players will not be happy reading vitriolic chat and it will result in fewer sales, recommendations, and plays.
- Rare guns, among many other topics, are not a fully explored part of the tutorial
- Rare guns are a RNG chance drop. The negative side to this is sub-surface: many players will never know or hear about some of them, leading to people asking "what is a kriss". This can result in a % of your playerbase not experiencing a fun part of the game.
- Rare guns can be made 'for sale' at the armory with briefcases, but you still can't choose what you get so the demand for rares remains unchanged
- There is no form of active administration that can moderate over player disagreements, whatever they may be. Right now, rare guns are the chief cause of headbutting among players, followed by artillery spam.
- Since Rare guns are not worth much to a vendor, and are worth so much to players it can be almost unwise to carry them openly, players wind up stashing rares and never using them. this is another % of the player base that does not experience that part of the game. As a new player I fall under this category personally.
- Turning off friendly fire with explosives doesn't seem to be happening, so we must address the issue assuming FF stays on.

So these are all issues that could be looked at surrounding rare guns. They are listed for thoroughness, not all need be addressed at the same time.

What options do we have about changing rare guns functionality?

These ideas are ones I've heard from the community while discussing the topic. Some are my own.

- Like faction weapons, allow rare guns to be sold in batches to the armory. This will unlock rare guns for purchase for their rp cost at the armory. These unlocks will be saved to the players profile, and they will be permanent.
---Acknowledgements are addressed with a *---
* Problems with player profile- stored on server or client side? security risk?
* Some would argue unlocks should not be permanent; I argue if they're not permanent why bother collecting them? fun/reward factor for collecting 5 and unlocking permanently not to be ignored. Still would take a while.
* A compromise: Rare guns require less exp to use, but more exp to permanently buy once unlocked. I.e- if you find a rare gun on the ground, it might require 2000 exp to shoot it. However, to ability to buy it from the armory could be a second exp check of say, 5000exp, meaning that player must be a high enough rank to purchase rares directly, but not so high they can't use the gun at all. They are free to collect 5 and unlock the ability to purchase ahead of time, however.
-------------------------

- rare guns remain unchanged, but instead briefcases also unlock their rare item for the player profile permanently on top of unlocking the item for a few hours for the team. So, if a briefcase unlocks the LA851 for the entire team for a few hours, it also unlocks for your character permanently.
* Some items can be excluded from permanent briefcase unlock, like some heavy duty equipment like tow emplacements, miniguns, etc
* Briefcase droprate would have to be increased, else we'd have the same problem but now with briefcases.

- Add 'ownership' of dropped rare guns- say 60 seconds after you die your rare guns and equipment would be 'hidden' from any other players. after 120 seconds, items disappear.
* A suggested addition to this idea would be allowing squad mates the ability to pickup items as well, but this does not stop players from simply adding themselves to a squad. No UI or code exists for a 'friends list'. It seems the only squad-specific code is for squad chat with those who share your squad tag... so yea. I still like the squad idea though.

- Have crates w/ rare guns inside more common, devaluing rare guns
or - Gain new airdrop for a rng rare gun
* Anticlimatic

- Adding a new type of 'stash' or vendor: the "Buyback Broker". The Buyback broker (feel free to come up with a better name) will let you buy back anything you were carrying in your inventory last life for 1/2 rp cost.
* involves a heavy chunk of work to make, but some iteration of this could be a huge quality of life change for players.
* this would cut down on some drama, but then people will complain about how expensive it is to buy-back things, or people will then just camp the broker.
* A easier choice would be letting the armory or stash provide the same or similar service.

- Adding a new type of 'stash' or vendor: The "Blackmarket Bazaar" which would have a rotating stock of rare guns for sale at strategic locations
* carries the risk of people simply camping the new marketplace and killing people after they've made a sale on the way out

- Allowing rare guns to be unlocked in armory automatically when certain XP threshold is met
* simple & effective, but a bit grindy and still locks out newer, lower level players from ever trying some of the later ones.

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So there we have it. Plenty of ideas from the community, all addressing how rare guns are handled so that everyone can get a chance to use them, and enjoy doing it!

I personally vote for rare's becoming unlocked in some permanent capacity. It's very fun to have an almost rpg-element of character building to this game. But now that I'm a Captain, I've noticed there's really not much else to look forward to except more troops in my squad. Adding the ability to unlock rares in some permanent capacity would add a real level of progression to everyone's account, without really adding classes or even including additional fundamental parts of the game in the solution.

Because at the end of the day, I don't want to deal with the griefers who TK me for my guns, or the guys who just patiently follow you until you die and swipe your gun, and I don't want to hear about the people who TK and tease people over it or people who get TK'd whine about it - it's not what I'm playing the game for.

At the end of the day, I just take my rare guns and put them in my stash. I guess I'll just collect them all. I think I'm pretty good at RWR, and my lives are always short. "Why bother?"

And that's the wrong question a player should be asking themselves. They should be thinking: "I wonder if my last Benelli will drop today, maybe I can trade my p90 for someone else's benelli so I'll have all 5, then I can finally start trying out this new shotgun strategy I've been thinking of..."

Thanks!

See you on the battlefield!

It is certainly sad this tends to happen more and more, it wasn't like that back in the day when we had a smaller community. While the game's primarily a single player game or to be played with close friends where you don't see any of these issues, there are probably some alternatives how the Invasion could be tweaked and further differentiated from single player to increase player happiness by fighting the griefing, after all, Invasion is a large part of how RWR is played.

From a quick thought, I'd see these alternatives:
a) stop TK's right at the start #1
- explosions don't kill friendlies, friendlies are just pushed around when trying to drive over them with vehicles
- takes a lot away from immersion
- allows weird tactics with throwing nades at enemies while charging at them without fear of accidental TK
- removes all(?) possibilities to grief

b) stop TK's right at the start #2
- a grenade doesn't explode if a friendly is in the blast zone
- excuses: character forgot to pull the pin, C4 doesn't work, artillery/mortar shells are duds
- takes less away from immersion than #1
- removes all(?) possibilities to grief

c) allow TK's but change item drop logic
- don't drop items when a TK happens, preserving rares
- respawn with previous items after a TK without RP cost
- may stop TK's originating from rare item capture
- still allows TK's to an extent, TK penalty manager would be expected to deal with the rest

i like a) part #1

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Hi Parrot and welcome to the community.

we are, as we speak, discussing internally about a method to prevent those rare/tk/raging actions to happen.
The game is primarily designed for single player campaign. The invasion mode (online coop) is an addition which is very close to what you experience in a single player campaign.
The discrepancies need to be avoided as much as possible which leads into keeping several design choices in place.

As for your poll's options:

1) Collect 5 of same rare gun, sell to armory, unlocks permanently: rare gun in armory is definitely not an option. I wouldn't want to see most players play with rares most of the time.
2) Add ownership to guns, others cant take yours after death: not a fan of that actually. If a soldier is KIAed, every soldier is allowed to loot the weapon unless he is the one who causes the players death.
3) Add more secret crates: I think we have enough of them. There are around 40 of them in the campaign.
4) Briefcase - Perm. unlock for player, timed unlock for team: It's unlocked for 4h, which is way enough. I'd even lower it. Just buy a bunch of the the item you'd want to have permanently and put it in your stash.
5) Add ability/vendor to 'buyback' guns from last life for 1/2 rp: too much work, we might have something similar in our next project
6) Add vendor for rare items: same as 5)
7) Unlock rare guns at armory at certain XP threshold: This would require to have again different XP requirement. Or having an XP req for buying and one other for using? meh.

What I just discussed with pasik was that if a soldier (AI or human) is killed by any blast originated by a human, the victim won't drop anything. If the victim is a human, it would respawn with the stuff he died with. There is no logic linked with it to make such a respawn possible without draing some RP to re-buy stuff but with some hacks it might be possible. We are investigating into that option but it seems the best to me. On top of that, it would get rid of people killing their own elite soldiers to steal their rare weapons.
This is option c) pasik just mentioned and is for now our favorite option.

Overall, rare weapons are overrated. You can be very effective with stock weapons which is why I fight myself only with stock unless I just find a rare on the battlefield, then I just use it.

Haha I don't know if there's a common favorite option yet I actually favor option b

oh really? Got the message wrong then. Well then b) for you c) for me

Why do you not want your players to play your game? Sorry for an aggressive question, but that's what I see here. We have a bunch of items in the game you're not even sure you want us to be using? What's the point, then?


Briefcases unlock slowly, and a timed unlock for the team doesn't help the player. They stockpile briefcases anyway. Because 4h server time is not 4h player time. The player might not have, or want, to play the game for 4 concurrent hours for a random chance of a gun they actually wanted to use being in the armory.
This is a design oversight! I want to the use, say, LG851. It hasn't been unlocked yet. I'm just shit out of luck, with your system. And that's not fun! And if its not fun whats the point? I can't use a gun I want to use. I can't choose if I get to use that gun even if i finally get a briefcase to unlock it. And after finally wading through all the RNG to get the gun, I can't take it with me. Or someone unlocks the la851 when I'm offline, and I miss my chance entirely!

How is that fun? Forget fair, or balanced, this is a human-vs-ai gamemode that has no competition between players...except over rare guns.

And your solution of just buying more guns to use from my stash is a lazy answer. Sorry, but you know it too.

What if the gun is unlocked while I'm not playing? I'm shit out of luck.
What If I get 5 briefcases and none of them unlock a gun I want to use? Im shit out of luck.
What if I finally do get the gun I want, but then I'm killed on accident by a nade, run over by chance, or just shot by the crazy-accurate AI who spawned right behind me? Im shit of out luck.

That is not fun. If you think its fun, fine (masochist! ), but you're punishing me- and players like me- to have your kind of fun.

I completely agree that it's a lot of work. I'm glad you're looking into it.



I'm afraid I don't quite understand you here. Can you reword for me when you get a chance? If I'm understanding this correctly, if a human tk's a human, nothing drops, tk'd human gets items back next life for their rp cost or something? If an AI tk's a human, nothing drops, human gets their shit back.
What if a human TK's an AI, or vice versa? Is that lost loot as well? (This is where I dont understand)



Out of everything you've replied to me with, this is the only sentence that upsets me.

Why did you put rare guns in the game if they're overrated, and you'd rather not have people use them? What's the fucking point? The whole goal of the game is to shoot the other guys, and a good 1/3rd of the instruments of destruction available to me are out of my reach because you personally don't think they're worth the time or effort?

what the?!

I use defaults all the time too, but you honestly expect me to play the entire game with the g36? maybe throw in a few SG 552's that after a few deaths I have to run back to armory to manually sell and buy a different rifle due to rp drain? thats how im supposed to be playing the game? turning in random briefcases from time to time to unlock a gun like a deagle that i didnt want, wont use, and don't get to keep? thats not fun!! i agree with you that most rares aren't worth the effort people go through to get them, but there are a few i'd really enjoy using for more than a few minutes at a time. Variety is the spice of life! What's the harm in letting players use more guns? Borderlands 2 sold on the premise of more guns! not less!! I want to be able to unlock more than just call-ins and some extra soldiers in my squad!

homeboy you're letting me down here!


but, for the rest of the post, thanks for taking a look at what I had to say. some points you explained quite neatly why they wouldn't work, and others you said you'd look into them. Thank you for that.

I do hope you seriously consider what I'm trying to say here:

Rare guns, right now, are not fun. I don't think that's how you intended them to come off to players. Please take another look at them. I can understand you don't want people running around with rare's all the time- I get that- but you really should change how rare's are integrated in the game and their availability to players.

Cause at the end of the day, rare guns are not fun to use. not fun to own. not fun to obtain. no sense of accomplishment/progression tied to them. And if you're telling me you like it that way, well whew! that's a different post!

p.s i really like your game. please do not think im someone who just whines to get their way or to get you angry... I'm a big fan who is ready to bring up hard topics in a discussion with a developer. cheers, see you on the battlefield

I vote this, though keep in mind, there would also need to be a block to stop people from c4ing the comms truck, so think it should be a combo of C and B with B being used for allied vehicles. (not counting stolen vehicles)

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