RUNNING WITH RIFLES :: View topic

Spoiler:

Currently stealth doesn't make sense for any other purpose than hitting the radar truck, i.e. hitting a valuable destroyable target which you can pull off alone or with a few guys as long as you get close enough by not alerting it or the defense near it (basically this is it, stealth in RWR, just the target will be different, and maybe you can steal it rather than destroy it, whether it's an item or vehicle). The commanding AI could be made to send a handful of small teams to enemy side bases to investigate where the radar truck is.

The first bigger problem would happen if a player would not be there where the radar truck is, as everything is just simulated outside player regions; the stealth group would hit the defense forces in the block, and automatically a fight starts between them. The small stealth team would be killed very quickly due to being outnumbered. Thus, simulation logic would need to be expanded someway to allow stealth groups to go through blocks with enemies, but just not always, they'd be spotted sometimes.

The second bigger problem would happen when the player is there to witness the behavior of the enemy stealth group. What the stealth group should be doing is that they'd be scanning the base area to locate the radar truck, restricted by their sight range and occlusion from any obstacles like usually. They have to have means to remember what they've scanned, as a team, and try to access spots where to look down to the area what they haven't seen yet. And try to access those spots without getting killed, so they'd have to stay aware where the spotted enemies are, where they are watching, and probably try some anticipation where they will move while time goes on. If they are spotted, they should retreat a little, and try again.. It's a huge amount of work for something the player usually won't even be seeing, as the player won't be in the base, he's attacking or doing his own stealth stuff usually.

Ok, there's always the option to simplify. Maybe the stealth groups just go around the base near it, and listen if they can hear the radar truck, and if they can, they'll inform the rest of the faction that they've located the radar truck. They might try to attack it, similar to how attacking happens now, usually failing at it. At least they would've spotted the truck, which is the first step of doing something useful behind enemy lines. Of course.. if they attack and cause an alarm, the truck will flee and the information about the truck's whereabouts becomes old, so better not attack, right?

Author:	Causeless [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:35 am ]
Post subject:	AI Improvements
Here are a few ideas which I think could make the AI a lot funner to play against: -- Reaction times. Right now, it seems that the AI, as soon as they spot you, instantly snap around to shoot at you. Instead, I think that firstly they should take a bit of time to aim, and secondly they should have a small reaction time (200ms or so), constantly applied to everything. So, when they see you they have the aiming time on top of the reaction time, but also the reaction time would decide where the AI would shoot so they'd shoot at your location 200ms ago extrapolated forwards, encouraging you to zigzag a lot and act unpredictable. This would be a much bigger help in say, avoiding snipers as they are single shot high-precision, than shotgunners or men with assault rifles, as their relatively large amount of bullet spread would make bullet likely to hit you anyways. -- More soldier states. Soldiers seem very binary right now, that is, they either appear to be in full-blown combat or completely clueless. So, I propose a few in-between states are added. Firstly, an "investigation" state. This would occur if the AI "nearly" detect you; that is, for example they hear your footsteps, a couple of bullets, or maybe catch a slight glimpse of you in the distance. Currently, if they see you even for a small amount of time they run for cover and go into a combat state. However, this investigation state would instead have them walk towards the source of the disturbance to find out what happened accompanied with some "What was that?" speech bubbles. Secondly, a "surprised" state. This would occur if you appeared very suddenly, for example if you ran out in front of hem from a corner or nearly kill them with a bullet. This state would have them unable to shoot or move as they figure out what is happening for about a second, which would encourage stealth a bit more as you could for example hide behind a corner then as they walk around, knife them before they react. However, this surprised state wouldn't occur every single time they spot you (for example, if they see you off in the distance they'd not have this state, and also if they are already in the investigation state they wouldn't be surprised). The length of the surprised state would depend on rank. A rookie private would be very clumsy and take a good second or 2 to realize what's happening, while a veteran rank 10,000 man would have no surprised state whatsoever. -- More ways to hide. Right now, you can only use hard physical cover to hide. I suggest that we get some over ways of staying stealthy, for example hiding in thick foliage, staying prone in long grass, and the such. The foliage would effect the chances of the AI seeing you in a bubble around itself, for example if in a thick bush and an soldier comes along looking directly at you, instead of instantly spotting you there would be a percentage chance they would. If at a decent range in a good bush, there would perhaps only be a 0.5 percent chance per second of them spotting you, and as they get closer this chance would get higher and higher until they eventually do spot you. When they finally do, they go into the investigation state until they see you a second time, at which point full blown combat begins. Of course, stance would effect this, with it being almost impossible to hide standing up unless in a very tall bush, and being able to hide much easier when crouching. Being prone would be the best for some situations, for example tall grass, but not all - you can't have your feet poking out a bush and remain hidden.

Author:	harrified [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
I 100% support measures to make the AI behave more human-like (cutting down on Bullshit Factor), but are we going to have advanced features such as line-of-sight/fog-of-war on screen that would make stealth gameplay something that isn't asymmetrical or applied only by human players?

Author:	Causeless [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
harrified wrote: I 100% support measures to make the AI behave more human-like (cutting down on Bullshit Factor), but are we going to have advanced features such as line-of-sight/fog-of-war on screen that would make stealth gameplay something that isn't asymmetrical or applied only by human players? I don't think having the AI stealthy has any point. It'd be a pain to code something that works even remotely, and even if you managed something they'd be outwitted easily. On top of that, having deaths where you are clueless to what killed you is never any fun. However, I do think that there should be a fog-of-war, but it only applies from human players to others, with the AI bots not being hidden at all.

Author:	harrified [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
Causeless wrote: I don't think having the AI stealthy has any point. You mean stealthy enemies don't add anything to gameplay? Quote: It'd be a pain to code something that works even remotely, and even if you managed something they'd be outwitted easily. Would it be any more painful to code rules of engagement per AI squad than procedures for the AI to locate a hidden player as you suggested? Would the AI not also be outwitted easily when investigating noises? Is AI inferiority to humans grounds for dismissal of a feature? Quote: On top of that, having deaths where you are clueless to what killed you is never any fun. Quote: However, I do think that there should be a fog-of-war, but it only applies from human players to others, with the AI bots not being hidden at all. Are these last two quotes not in contradiction? Also, how do you delineate AI as a single player challenge from AI as fodder in multiplayer? Should the AI be geared toward one over the other?

Author:	pasik [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
Causeless wrote: Here are a few ideas which I think could make the AI a lot funner to play against: -- Reaction times. Right now, it seems that the AI, as soon as they spot you, instantly snap around to shoot at you. Instead, I think that firstly they should take a bit of time to aim, and secondly they should have a small reaction time (200ms or so), constantly applied to everything. So, when they see you they have the aiming time on top of the reaction time, but also the reaction time would decide where the AI would shoot so they'd shoot at your location 200ms ago extrapolated forwards, encouraging you to zigzag a lot and act unpredictable. This would be a much bigger help in say, avoiding snipers as they are single shot high-precision, than shotgunners or men with assault rifles, as their relatively large amount of bullet spread would make bullet likely to hit you anyways. When the AI is not alert, and an alert happens (someone fires nearby or explosion happens or someone shouts to alert), they have a reaction timer to start the fighting state. On day time the reaction time is random between 300-600ms, during night it's 500-800ms. It's easy to see take place when you shoot with e.g. a sniper rifle against a non-alerted enemy from far away, and your shot gets delivered, even if the AI had plenty of time to move after you pulled the trigger. It's also clear if you just make noise hidden from the enemy: you see half of them comment something, and it almost looks as if they stop functioning just to say that comment or listen to it. The feature has been there a long time now, it made a huge difference to not having reaction time. Also, if they have to turn & shoot, they get a fairly large penalty to accuracy. This doesn't mean they'd never hit in such case, but it is less probable. Their aiming is pretty poor in general with settings equal and below 0.

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AI Improvements http://www.runningwithrifles.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=970	Page 1 of 2

Author:	pasik [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
Causeless wrote: -- More ways to hide. Right now, you can only use hard physical cover to hide. I suggest that we get some over ways of staying stealthy, for example hiding in thick foliage, staying prone in long grass, and the such. The foliage would effect the chances of the AI seeing you in a bubble around itself, for example if in a thick bush and an soldier comes along looking directly at you, instead of instantly spotting you there would be a percentage chance they would. If at a decent range in a good bush, there would perhaps only be a 0.5 percent chance per second of them spotting you, and as they get closer this chance would get higher and higher until they eventually do spot you. When they finally do, they go into the investigation state until they see you a second time, at which point full blown combat begins. Of course, stance would effect this, with it being almost impossible to hide standing up unless in a very tall bush, and being able to hide much easier when crouching. Being prone would be the best for some situations, for example tall grass, but not all - you can't have your feet poking out a bush and remain hidden. Bushes are currently see-through, adding them as sight occluding will be done at some point. Currently you can prone really close to the AI without it seeing if he's not alert, even more so during night. Crouching will take you closer than walking and running without him getting alert too. Obviously ground type will be nice to add to the mechanics, as currently you can just move prone in the middle of road as a green soldier and they won't spot you even if you're fairly close. This way, ground types with thick decoration could be made to make the AI spot targets even less when prone.

Author:	pasik [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:45 am ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
harrified wrote: I 100% support measures to make the AI behave more human-like (cutting down on Bullshit Factor), but are we going to have advanced features such as line-of-sight/fog-of-war on screen that would make stealth gameplay something that isn't asymmetrical or applied only by human players? Fog-of-war is in the plans, at this point it is post-1.0. Technically it seems it's another light source that only casts shadows which is positioned where the player is and is directed where he's facing / aiming. The performance impact will be similar to having shadows turned on. Whether AI will have logic for executing stealth, I do have doubts about it. I also think stealth against AI will be almost an impossibility for players too when fog-of-war is used, so I'm not seeing how AI would pull it off. A number of new mechanics would need to be introduced like peeking around a corner to take a look around it without getting spotted, but seriously? Spoiler: Currently stealth doesn't make sense for any other purpose than hitting the radar truck, i.e. hitting a valuable destroyable target which you can pull off alone or with a few guys as long as you get close enough by not alerting it or the defense near it (basically this is it, stealth in RWR, just the target will be different, and maybe you can steal it rather than destroy it, whether it's an item or vehicle). The commanding AI could be made to send a handful of small teams to enemy side bases to investigate where the radar truck is. The first bigger problem would happen if a player would not be there where the radar truck is, as everything is just simulated outside player regions; the stealth group would hit the defense forces in the block, and automatically a fight starts between them. The small stealth team would be killed very quickly due to being outnumbered. Thus, simulation logic would need to be expanded someway to allow stealth groups to go through blocks with enemies, but just not always, they'd be spotted sometimes. The second bigger problem would happen when the player is there to witness the behavior of the enemy stealth group. What the stealth group should be doing is that they'd be scanning the base area to locate the radar truck, restricted by their sight range and occlusion from any obstacles like usually. They have to have means to remember what they've scanned, as a team, and try to access spots where to look down to the area what they haven't seen yet. And try to access those spots without getting killed, so they'd have to stay aware where the spotted enemies are, where they are watching, and probably try some anticipation where they will move while time goes on. If they are spotted, they should retreat a little, and try again.. It's a huge amount of work for something the player usually won't even be seeing, as the player won't be in the base, he's attacking or doing his own stealth stuff usually. Ok, there's always the option to simplify. Maybe the stealth groups just go around the base near it, and listen if they can hear the radar truck, and if they can, they'll inform the rest of the faction that they've located the radar truck. They might try to attack it, similar to how attacking happens now, usually failing at it. At least they would've spotted the truck, which is the first step of doing something useful behind enemy lines. Of course.. if they attack and cause an alarm, the truck will flee and the information about the truck's whereabouts becomes old, so better not attack, right?

Author:	harrified [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
pasik wrote: [a lot] Is there a manifesto for RWR's ultimate design goals? Will I ever stop asking questions?

Author:	pasik [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
harrified wrote: pasik wrote: [a lot] Is there a manifesto for RWR's ultimate design goals? Will I ever stop asking questions? To both questions, no. We have a fair idea what 1.0 will be like, but no one knows what post-1.0 will be like, we just got a bucket of unprioritized ideas. With post-1.0 thinking, there's also the matter of whether it makes sense or not. If it does, for how long? If it doesn't, what's next?

Author:	OzyThesage [ Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: AI Improvements
Causeless wrote: -- Reaction times http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... mAR8#t=64s If you go up against human players who are in a fight and you hit them from the side they will not immediately know they're being shot from the side, or may even be focused on a completely different target. The AI's 'lol 180º hipshot kekeke' shennanigans are pretty dumb. It should take them a moment to line up their shot, even if it's just a fraction of a second, as if they had to move a mouse cursor from their original target over to where you are. Causeless wrote: -- More soldier states. I think that soldiers may also have an 'ambush' state but I'm not entirely sure. The thing is, soldiers need to have a sort of 'field of view' so they can only see about as much as a human player would, maaaybe even a bit less? Humans have the ability to see in 360º and through walls, trees, rocks, whatever just fine, but I'm not sure what the AI does right now... The thing is, human players usually have their mouse cursor to the edge of the screen so they can see far in one direction, but don't have as much vision around them (At least that's what I do...). it seems like when the AI is in their 'clueless' state... it just seems weird, like they can't really see you or anything, but as soon as you fire a shot... Causeless wrote: a "surprised" state. This is already... sort of in the game. Sometimes the AI will stop what they are doing for a second, stand out in the open for a bit, then lock onto you, but it only really happens sometimes. Causeless wrote: -- More ways to hide. I don't know how many people have played MGS4 or its online mode, but in that game you had a 'camo index' and the better camo you had, the more your character model would become dithered into the surroundings. This method worked well against human players, and since the 'camo index' was simply a number it would tell the game how well the AI could spot you. Obviously there's no super special camouflage in the realities, but the same principles could apply fairly easily. Standing still in one place playing prone or maybe even against a wall of some sort could enable the effect. This post was made before I read the rest of the topic, but there you go...

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