I only rarely download demos...but when I do, even if I like a game, I never pay for a beta...I wait until the final product...but if I did buy a beta, I never go to a forum dedicated to the game and register to give feedback...I never do this stuff. Till now anyway. I picked up the demo after watching the co-op stealth vid on youtube. 20 minutes later I found myself buying the beta. Now, after putting about 15 hours into the game over the weekend I find myself coming here to chat about it, and I must say, both the game, and the community small though they may be rock. I'd like to offer some of my own constructive criticism and thoughts on the game, and to say thanks to the guys behind the curtain for bringing such a great game to life. Here are my thoughts.

An easier way to tell which soldier is yours. It's easy to get lost in the madness sometimes, especially in the middle of a pitched battle, when spawning, or when there's alot of stuff going on onscreen. Maybe a brighter circle around your character, or a different color hat or something might make it easier to keep up with your soldier visually?

More colors. Red vs Blue? A few more colors to choose from would be interesting. Also worth noting, would that perhaps open things up for 3 or 4 way faction battles?

More vehicles. I don't mean adding new types (although the possibility of tanks and choppers I read about on here sounds great) I mean adding in a few more jeeps and APC's. I know the focus is on infantry combat, and I love that about the game, but I actually see vehicles so infrequently, and they are destroyed so fast, that right now they feel like a non-factor in the battle outcome.

Mid Mission objectives. Things like assassinating a High Value Target, basically a walking version of the enemy com truck. Find it, kill it, and the enemy AI gets worse for a bit. Actual missions to hunt down and destroy the com truck. Optional objectives, like slipping out of the main fray and sneaking into a different enemy controlled point commando style and taking it.

More weapons. This is obvious, and I'm sure you guys are already working on it. If I might make a suggestion, perhaps a suppressed sniper rifle to give the stealth guys out there a bit more variety? Perhaps a sidearm as a secondary weapon?

Mounted Machine Guns/Artillery Pieces. A stationary MG is really, functionally, the same as a guy crouching behind a crate/wall with a LMG. Even if they protect the user from fire from the front it's still a stationary target, vulnerable from the flanks, or a grenade. An artillery piece could basically function as a cannon the fires a shell two screens (less maybe?) away. Give it basically the same explosive radius as a grenade, require 4-5 soldiers to man it (basically making it a stationary vehicle I suppose).

A few things I would advise caution when thinking about:
Limited Ammo: The idea of this really needs some thought. I'm not against it per see, but I think it has the potential to change the game. If you need to find ammo, where do you get it? Dead soldiers? Crates? Will you need to manage magazines via the inventory system? If there's going to be enough ways to get ammo that running out of ammo is never an issue, then why limit it at all? If running out of ammo IS a major concern do you fancy the look of annoyance on someones face when they drop their favorite weapon in favor of a PKM because they are out of ammo? (No disrespect to the PKM users out there)

A Counter Strike style inventory system. I love CS. Have since I first touched it what feels like forever ago. My main issue with something like that in RWR is that you die....ALOT. A WHOLE lot. Sometimes in rapid succession. If players are going to have to perform in order to make a resource, then take time to use that resource to purchase weapons/equipment each life it will change the game drastically. One of the things I feel RWR has going for it is pacing. It can be frantic, and chaotic, and that's a blast. Adding something like this in would slow the game down. People would likely take less chances if it meant losing something. Or having to redo a loadout each time to you died would add several mouse clicks or so between each spawn. This could become tedious. I say "could" with all of this, because it could also be awesome. Just food for thought.

Zombies. Why does it always have to be Zombies? I had hoped we were past this. Ok, I love Zombies too....but if I want to shoot zombies I'll go play Killing Floor or Left For Dead. Or something, anything, devoted to Zombies. Same with a "Horde" mode. RWR feels more like it's about the ebb and flow of combat. When to attack and when to retreat, and where to go on the map. Sitting in one spot and defending against wave after wave of enemy seems a bit against the grain to me...but that's just my thoughts. Some people may prefer playing RWR in that sort of style.


Anyway, thanks for reading the wall of txt. Any/all comments or suggestions were meant to be of a constructive nature.

I'm glad you found RWR fitting of a purchase! And welcome to Running with Rifles.

Actually, RWR was probably the first indie game that I ever purchased and definitely the first game in beta that i've bought.

Anywho, I'm just going to do a brief run through of your thoughts and ideas before pasik comes over and does his bit

1. Soldier identification - This problem is a thing for newer players but so far, we have not run into anyone who, after playing a few days, feels the need for this anymore. I'm sure that during the post 0.90 stage when all the user bugs and issues are ironed out, the soldier ID things will be better organized for massive multiplayer.

2. More Colors - It is very easy to open up the soldier models in a voxel editor and change them to whatever you like. In fact, if you browse through our growing Mods section, you can find great examples of new characters. In regards to 3-4 team battles, I can't actually remember the response from the devs but it seemed to be a possibility and would come in way later due to higher priorities.

3. More Vehicles - Thank you for not suggesting airplanes I for one would love to see a tank implemented if even to judge the reaction by the player base. Otherwise, adding a few more jeeps/apcs would work on certain maps for sure (Stalemate) but not so much on others (Sainte-Anne). Also, the fact that we have yet to get a battle taxi system where we can ask AI to stop for us and ferry our lazy bums around may add to the fact that the vehicles get destroyed too quickly.

4. Mid Mission Objectives - Would love to see. About the optional objectives, you can already do that. You can technically capture any base you want (as long as it's not in pure PVP). So you can up and leave your post and go fight all the way across the map. Your CO may not like it but yaknow, screw him

5. More Weapons - They are coming don't you worry. However, the split between Invasion mode (coop) and PVP mode makes a difference. While in Invasion mode, you can implement crazy OP weapons and still have it be fun, in PVP, each weapon needs a defined and specific role. Otherwise, people will just stick to 1 weapon and that will be the extent of RWR. With the low weapons count that RWR has at the moment, there is always a proper time for the use of certain weapons (except the PKM lol).

6. Mounted MG/Arty - Stationary MG emplacements are a planned feature for the engineer class (I believe). They will definitely add a whole new flow to the battle. I'm not sure how useful Artillery would be as just shelling the closest enemy base may be over powered. Not really sure though. Would need special attention if implemented.

7. Limited Ammo - Definitely a HUGE debate over how it may or may not work and if it is even needed. Ideas about a "hardcore" game mode where a more realistic RWR is played were thrown about on the IRC and seems to have some support amongst the players.

8. CS Inventory - Never played CS hahahaha. *hides in a corner

9. Zombies - http://www.modulaatio.com/runningwithrifles/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1129 LOL

So. Thank YOU for writing this freakin wall of text and in return, I shall write one back.

Join us in the IRC if you haven't already @ http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=rwr.

ComJak

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ComJak's house... stay out of it

I don't know if pasik has said anything about it yet so here's a thought [translation: disregard this post].

Going on the assumption that RWR is to be a game of action and strategy, ammo could be a complementary resource to those already in the game:

Comms Truck : Information
Armored Truck : Men
Ammo Truck? : Ammunition?

Ammo supplies could instead be anchored to strategic locations in order to emphasize particular strategies as map features do with distance and terrain.

Further, I'd suggest that 'ammo' doesn't actually need to represent literal ammunition reserves but could instead serve as an abstract performance modifier. Take for example how morale is handled in other games where the amount of 'morale' affects the unit's efficiency and ability to act. In RWR, a unit that has exhausted its 'ammo' might then suffer from restricted magazine capacity, decreasing its overall firepower but never preventing it from contributing in a fight.

It's difficult to consider what should be done with RWR at this stage since it appears very little of it is set in stone so far. I wish pasik would compile a manifesto [HINT] so we have some laws to go by and not just discussions on preferences. I'd love to theorize on how inventory and items should be handled but I'd rather not without knowing His intentions.

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Mid mission objectives are doable and will be, read Pasik and My conversation.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=950

For extra weapons and player models
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1020

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"For the strength of the Wolf is the Pack, and the strength of the Pack is the Wolf."  Oo Rah Marine Corp.

Hi WristRogue and welcome! (haha I indeed wrote wrist lol. Reminds me as I unintendedly called a user "BlazingHood" instead of "BlazingBlood" )

First of, good that you played several hours before you posted your thoughts and suggestions about the game as people who play just a few minutes usually oversee a lot of things and didn't pass the "get used to"-phase.

1. Player marker: I think this is something people get used to, especially in singleplayer. In multiplayer this IS definitely an issue. At the session this sunday I go lost a few times when respawning near other players. I discussed this with pasik yesterday evening and he also agrees but not enough to raise its priority in the endless long ToDo list but fact something will be done and we already have a few ideas.

3. more vehicles: Formerly it wasn't meant that the game would have vehicles at all, so we are already a huge step forward in that matter For myself I really think that most maps have about the right amount of vehicles. We might add another truck in the map "Stalemate" as only one truck is a bit too less. New types of vehicles will be added sooner or later so we better let some place free for them.

4. side mission objective: those will definitely come and the comms truck drivers won't feel alone as being the only target as side objective We plan to implement, beside the base XP, also job XP, which will be gained by doing some side objectives. With this consumeable job XP, you'll be able to "buy" radio calls, equip and some other stuff.

5. There will probably be more then enough weapons at the end. I like the idea of a suppresed Sniper Rifle.

6. Stationary MG hasn't really been planned but I can see it as a nice tactical thing. As the angle would be limited it could be countered easily. Also a sniper could take the gunner out easily as he is immobile. Also a new weapon (the secret weapon I still don't want to spoil out) might be good against it.

7. We discussed limited ammo with pasik almost a whole day recently lol. I can say that this will most likely happen, EVEN in the normal mode, not only hardcore mode. it will be held pretty simple and you won't have the feeling that you are running out of ammo every few seconds.

8. Last time I played CS myself was back in 1999 with the beta 0.5 or something

9. The idea of brainless creatures that just want to eat you is nice in general. I can't the an alternative to zombie myself, even though I am getting a bit sick about zombie everywhere. Nowaday put the word "zombie" in your game title and you sell. I can't think of an alternative myself... Aliens? no way. Nazis on LSD? why not

Good to see some prompt responses to the points brought up, most of them on the line of plans too haha

Here are my additions to a few:

6. While stationary MG seems like a very reasonable addition to the game, I have my reservations about it. It practically enables the same thing the 0.85 inventory configuration does, which is the multiweapon mode, albeit only stationary. A sandbag wall with a stationary MG with limited turning range would seem like an easy place to defend from all directions as you have your assault rifle to use against the secondary directions. A soldier with a regular portable M240 at least has the downside of having to go prone to shoot other directions.

7. Limited ammo is still a do or don't feature, it hasn't been yet decided ultimately what to do with it, despite our extensive discussions about it with JackMayol Of course, it is needed for any kind of realism mode (or mod) (note: optional), so support for it should emerge within scope of RWR 1.0 anyhow.

8. The inventory is not meant to be used together with dying If anything, it's more of a way to do other stuff than direct combat, although I agree it doesn't appear that way in 0.85 as most of the inventory content is still undone and there's the problem of personal weapon arsenal mode which needs to be stopped. I'd argue that when playing PvP or the regular single matches you shouldn't really need the backpack for anything, unless you want to execute side objectives (or the mode requires you to) which involve other things than the usual running to the front line, killing and dying.

Purchasing stuff is also optional. The weapon racks which currently supply infinite weapons for free will have a cost in the future. So if you've done something to earn these points, the currency, duty points, whatever the name, you can spend it for getting a quick access to the weapon you are looking for right now instead of going crate smashing and playing with luck. The weapon racks will also supply calls in the future, squad drop call, different kind of strikes. Normally, you'd keep your previous primary weapon when respawning and get a random supply of throwables and secondary weapons, like it is currently.

These duty points can be earned by various ways, one way is to deliver stuff to the weapon rack (it's an armory in the future to be honest) - weapon truck theft side objective, anyone? Nothing should force you to do this kind of thing if the combat is where you're best at, it's only for when you willingly want to do something else than direct combat - the best part of RWR isn't going anywhere just because inventory is being implemented

(what if, maybe you could access a virtual armory when you're dead and waiting for the respawn timer to expire, you could use the points to change your weapon if needed and maximize your odds to get full grenade loadout)

Invasion mode then, which is meant to have a much longer playing duration with parts when you indeed want to spend some time to focus on personal progression rather than solely trying to beat the map, it's here where the inventory would begin to be much more important. This mode will also feature vests and medikits to allow some level of chance of surviving lethal hits, for the sake of not losing your items you've got with you. This on the other hand is most important when you've reached the level of being able to carry one of those rare weapons which you wouldn't respawn with.

Here's something I could think of without looking at my todo-list with way too many items. As outlined in the About-page:

single player and online campaign modes
more maps, configurable for assault & defend
new item system: new grenades, vests, medikits, riot shields, rare weapons, calls
new outfits
more vehicles
Mac port
engineer features, wall construction
more modding possibilities

single player and online campaign modes
more maps, configurable for assault & defend
* equals Invasion
* I'm dreaming of 10 maps, of which 5 has been done, a few assault maps where enemy defends only
* includes side objectives, vehicle based, item based, character based
* overview screen, where you see the overall status of the Invasion

new item system: new grenades, vests, medikits, riot shields, rare weapons, calls
* basic enablers are almost done now
* vests, medikits, rare weapons = Invasion only
* calls means at least different levels of squad drops and mortar strike like elements, maybe some kind of item or vehicle drops
* potentially includes a helo
* reward / random loot items which are practically useless, but can be delivered to the faction in hopes of duty points reward
* melee items
* other content ideas have included C4, mines, construction resources, plenty of things should be possible to create once we decide what it could be and where and how to use them, main idea is that the logic should follow either shootable/pointable (+ reloadable), throwable, wearable or melee, or just something to carry & deliver
* limited ammo..

new outfits
* at least new factions to be played in 2-faction matches
* I'm dreaming of free count faction matches

more vehicles
* mostly about appearance, with some added support for vehicles with weapons, so again should be doable once decided what
* jeep with MG / humvee?
* weapon truck for an objective
* tank?
* while not exactly vehicles in the usual sense, I'd add a few "static" vehicles here used as stationary weapons and destroy targets

Mac port
* I'm dreaming of owning an Apple product which I only use to compile and test RWR

engineer features, wall construction
* the simple version makes it possible to set up single piece structures that provide cover and which can be destroyed
* the complex version is something I dare not dream of
* at times I also think of destructible fences and other structures which have been laid out initially in the map, which won't repair themselves, issues with this are mostly AI related

AI
* battle-taxi
* usage of new items
* side-objective support, where needed

polishing
* jumping down from a roof and getting a penalty for doing it
* coming down ladders by sliding, you know
* bug fixing, there's quite a lot to fix
* + and all the 483 things that are facing a risk of falling off the scope of 1.0

usability
* communication markers
* slight revamp of the menu and options, scoreboard and other UI
* indicators and hand-holding to some extent
* localization
* + and so on

more modding possibilities
* character configs (similar to what weapons and vehicles have)
* AI configs (all AI parameters I've needed to create the AI in RWR)
* metagame interface to be extended with about all commands that are carried over network from server->clients
* + all the things I've made vague promises of which I currently don't remember

First of all, WistRogue, you're not alone. I myself started very much the same way a week or two ago. I saw the first video on Indie Hour Highlights on Gamespot.com. Watched about half, found the Greenlight page on Steam (worth the vote if you have an account), looked at the official website, demo 10+minutes, and had to totally get the beta. I want in. And also amazed at the community. I quickly became a member too. Plus knowing that I can get the game without the need for 3rd-party clients like Steam or Desura is nice. I feel like I get to actually own the game. (Thanks guys.) It's also nice to see the makers online once and a while. Didn't even realize I was playing with Jack a couple days ago at first. (There's also a small official mod here to have a server watcher in your task bar.)

Now, if I may I'd like to add a little, with the understanding that of course it's always meant as user input and never as demanding, hell put a unicorn in it that vomits cupcakes... it's your game, lol.

It would be nice to have something to help a little in heavy stalemates. After playing a number of long rounds with a friend of mine, AI at 400-600, it does happen at some points when it stagnates. I know there are many things yet to be put in, and of course it will all change the flow to some degree. So perhaps these stalemates will be broken with calling larger bomber strike, guided rocket, artillery bombardment, perhaps paratrooper drop (although that would just be sky fodder possibly). I understand, ideally, the APC could also be used in these situations. But perhaps allowing a few troops to fire out the sides, or upping the HP a little. It seems at times that even with the most caution and care, and a wealth of friendlies all around, it's very easy to lose it. It should be a priority target, and the AI does well to respond. But maybe by adding some friendly AI response to the APC when driven by player so that they use it as cover and tries to protect it a little more. Just something to high-light it a little more as a spearhead in an attack. At this point they don't feel like a big threat or have a large function, plus don't appear to be on all maps.

I do look forward to the gun emplacements you are thinking about. Some of the great trench battles could do with barbwire and MG nests. I just fear user placed mines...

The side missions. At this point there is nothing to say other then I look forward to and totally support this idea. It'll be nice to have objectives and more dynamic motivations for engaging in the battle. Yet the battles themselves are what brought me to this game. I have longed to engage in something more like warfare, not arena with a warfare skin. Thank you for the numbers in AI. It allows for wonderful emergent properties! I love the way they respond to changing conditions. It's amazing how a new front or battle line can open up just by causing a little firefight. It would be nice though sometimes if maybe players could vote to change AI placed main area of engagement? (Assuming the AI go to the marked priority target more and spawn there in higher numbers.) I'll save ideas for side missions for the official forum page if there is one at this point.

The need for Ammo is a bit concerning, you do die a lot. I know I am new, but I still assume its kind of frequent even if you aren't terrible. Yet, I'll have to wait and see. From all the subtle detail in everything so far I assume it obviously won't be done lightly, or with little regard.

There was a mention of med-kits again. I really hope to see these. it would be nice to be able to revive players on the field, them most of all. Also maybe a chance to pick up squad mates when you're sneaking in somewhere. Although that's an issue with bodies persisting... but PLAYERS. It would be nice to be able to save other players. Not all the time of course. A hail of bullets is a hail of bullets.

The player marker... I love the subtly. I am so glad the HUD isn't cluttered with floating crap and bright colored markers, or floating guns to pick up... or coins or freaking power-ups!. I have gotten much better at keeping track of myself and others. Yet it would be nice if perhaps your own ring was just a little darker. Or is it possible to simply add a slider in the menus for these things? One for personal marker, one for all other players. Personal color choice for offline/single-player/private online games? Kind of tired of being yellow and light blue in our private game, and the light blue gets to easily lost at night or everywhere greyish.

More Vehicles? I'm happy with having vehicles as long as they don't become focal points of super player power. 'Cause nothing ruins a game more then overpowered vehicles. If you do add tanks, if at all possible, please try to set them up with different armor strengths. Such as weak in the back and top. More needed tactics are better, always. It's nice when you have to use it appropriately instead of just crashing around killing everything in sight. And having to face into the line of fire does a lot for playing with tanks.
There does seem to be some problems with AI and vehicles though, but obviously your guys are still building the game. I see a lot of empty vehicle pile up. There kind of needs to be some sort of clean up now and then. They will also pile up sometimes far off and useless. One AI will get in a truck or jeep and drive to the same location and get out. Over and over, until there are like 4 jeeps and 3 trucks and an APC all just sitting on a hill near a front, or road. And they are jerks and keep moving the TruckSpawn back to a place they want it (the AI). Like that one jerk in every game that doesn't want people to use things like that for anything other than whet they want, the AI might as well just start blowing it up every time you get in it. At least make the jeeps load up with AI guys if a player doesn't get in. It just looks cooler with a full load and constantly dropping 4 or 10 guys has got to better than 1. And yes, we need orders to get a jeep/truck to let us get in, and priority seating over AI (No that's my jeep, ass. LET ME DRIVE!)

The Sniper. Highly prized to have in your squad, horribly hated to have in your enemies'. They are needed, the guns and the users of them. But all I ask is to PLEASE don't fall into the over use of sniping issue. Where once a player becomes super proficient the sniper rifle becomes the most powerful and commonly used weapon. So far you guys have done great with hindering movement and reloading to make them feared but not the only fear. I'm just scared that it could turn into another game where 50%+ of the online players are just using sniper rifles and sitting in all the prime spots. Totally into defensive and support positions, and this game is prime for those real tactics, just would hate to see it turn into knowing that almost all players are just sniping constantly. Yet I do super well with almost anything in a good appropriate position.

And you mentioned classes? Would this involve just the load-outs? Or is it a perk-tree? My only concern is just ending up fighting peoples' perks and not the pure tactics that show so brightly in this game. But I do like the idea of classes for gear and a roll in battle.

Oh and Zombies, I always enjoy a truly faceless enemy. An evil we can all get behind. Or in front of. Maybe a more DAYZ style approach? Or a super awesome modder person out there could recreate an open world like that? Not just stationary horde mode. DONE>>>TO>>>DEATH>>>pun intended, but for cereal. The issue is not just turning it into another "reverse run and gun". Where you literally run backwards and just keep shooting. Where's the tactics in that?

Well with my wall of words, I just like to finish with: I really do enjoy this game more than any other major title I have played in a long time! Thank you for creating amazing emergent warfare to exist in this game with your AI numbers and ease on system requirements. (Personally I look forward to the future optimization phase.) It's nice to not have to run a giant tower to play such a dynamic game. Keep up the work and I assure you, your community is growing.
I'm going to try and recruit some old virtual battle buddies from the MAG and 1943 days.

Sincere'the-hell-out-of'ly Opt_0

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More secondary weapon support.

Holy lots of replies Batman! You gents work quick.

Regarding mods, I've never actually had much success in getting mods to work with other games in the past, but since RWR seems to be breaking every other rule I've established for PC gaming in the last decade or two I may just pick a few up and try them out (Thanks for the suggestion Newabortion)

It's good to see the midmission type objectives will be supported at some point. I know you can do some of that type of thing now, but I'm a greedy bastard and like to be rewarded for doing things MY way
I look forward to seeing what some of these new objectives might be, and what effect/role if any they play on the battlefield.

On the subject of more vehicles, I don't think so many should be dashed in that it becomes a top down Battlefield 3 for sure, but armored vehicles being something infantry has to really worry about could add something to a battle. Perhaps a user controlled option to set the amount of vehicles for a given match, or maybe an alternate game mode spawning more in? eh, I'm happy regardless.

I'm really intrigued by this currency (whatever it may actually be called) and curious about the type of things you'll be doing with it. That will definitely change the game, but it will also be pretty freaking sweet too I think

And for the record, if this game gets a Nazis on LSD mode I am absolutely in for that