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 Post subject: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Hello guys, I'm new here, but i searched for similar posts, so don't worry, I know what I'm doing. ;)
Like few other runners I was thinking about RWR in medieval, but I know that making another mod isn't a good idea, it would be fun for an hour or so but not for longer (because of maps, AI, actual mechanics etc.). I rather think about it like the idea of making new game or DLC to existing game.

I don't write this post to actually make it happen, it's just bunch of ideas that I think are interesting to share and discuss about, or to wonder what would happen if.

The main idea is to move RWR gameplay to medieval:
  • Maps could be sieges of castles and forts with main goal to capture bases just like in classic RWR
  • Main difference would be of course fighting, because you will have swords, shields and bows (and of course other melee and ranged weapons). For every weapon (or at least most of them) you would have 2 different actions like swing with sword (LMB) and defend with shield (RMB), shot with bow straight and shot with parabolic arrow (I don't know how to describe it, I mean shot high so the arrow would hit someone even if he is defending), stab with spear and swing it to stun multiple opponents
  • Melee fights would have to have special mechanics like knockback (not stun like in classic RWR), so when you hit your opponent's shield you would be knocked back more then him and open to hit for longer, so he will be in advantage. Of course even koncked back you could still move slightly to avoid counterattack. So fights 1 vs 2 would be very hard and you will rely more on cooperation.
  • We all know that RWR weapons are based on kill probability, so I think in RWS it should be similar, for example faster weapons would have 75% kill probability and slower and bigger ones would have like 90%, but every hit means knockback, so even if you don't kill someone with your hit you will be in advantage because of time to recover from knockback, but your opponent will also have chance to kill you like in classic RWR.
  • Two hands means two slots for equipment, so you would have two slots for your main weapon and two for secondary, and one-handed weapons would be regular rectangles in your eq but two-handed would be twice as wide, so they will take both slots. Bows would require quiver so they will take both slots as well.
  • There would be variety of armors for knights and archers or assassins, of course unlocked when you have required amount of xp. Some of heavier armors would also lower hit probability (to compensate much lower speed)
  • Grenades might be replaced by throwing knives (or other throwable weapons or just stones to stun), so that even very slow knight can kill archer, but when opening up to arrow when throwing, or to even up chances against two opponents
  • Variety of weapons and arrows with different stats like for example swinging speed, how strongly you will be knocked back (shield stat), how strongly your opponent will be knocked back (weapons stat), how fast you recover from knockback (different for weapons and shields), reach (that may be indicated similarly to actual crosshair and line of sight), shield defense angle (when two archers want to kill you and you have small shield you are screwed :D) etc.
  • Vehicles might be siege machines?
  • Maybe some kind of grappling hook to climb walls and make quiet assassination? Or weaker points of castle that you can access just like thath?
  • When you gain xp less experienced bots would of course join your squad and you could choose rather you want knights or archers in your squad, or you could make mixed squad so knights could cover archers
  • Maybe some formations?
  • FOV would let some lighter soldiers attack from the back opponents that are engaged in fight, that may result in forming little armies and may require surrounding them to bleed them out (I don't know, it's just a thought)
  • Stationery balista that could stun you even if you block with shield?
  • I think much faster recovery from stun would be required to have chance to stand up
  • Strong attacks that could stunt you?

Like I said that is just and idea of DLC or new game like RWR, I just want you to wonder about this idea, imagine what would happen if, point out things that couldn't work and why, point out things that you think are awesome, point out things that you think would be better or whatever you want. Maybe some day we will see Running With Swords ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:34 am 
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Arysto wrote:
Maps could be sieges of castles and forts with main goal to capture bases just like in classic RWR


You're new to RWR? So you don't yet know that it's actually a MOBA, not an open-world tactical game? Notice that you can't put down a defending force to hold ground?

FYI, the aim for vanilla campaign is to gain ground and hold ground, so that you disable enemy spawn points. It's a MOBA, really. For details, see: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3477

Play it like a MOBA, with vanilla campaign spawn capacity set to 100% vs 100%, and you will enjoy the full range the game has to offer: side missions (not stealth, no infiltration, sorry), aiding the main battle line, etc. If you set the odds to 90% vs 120%, that's almost causing the enemy AI to easily overrun your AI, so you'll be limited to aiding the main battle line, with no window of opportunity for side quests.

Arysto wrote:
Main difference would be of course fighting, because you will have swords, shields and bows (and of course other melee and ranged weapons). For every weapon (or at least most of them) you would have 2 different actions like swing with sword (LMB) and defend with shield (RMB).


RWR has yet to get the mechanics of firing while holding shield (not even asking for firing while shielding). Maybe once that gets done, Osumia can think about swords and shields.

Melee would be much faster paced, and blocking with shield would be very hit-and-miss. In fact, melee is a lot more involved, requiring nothing short of fencing maneuvers (a la https://store.steampowered.com/app/94400/Nidhogg/).

If RWR does allow firing while holding shield, I would want the accuracy to be drastically reduced. One-handed operation should have accuracy penalties.

Arysto wrote:
Melee fights would have to have special mechanics like knockback (not stun like in classic RWR), so when you hit your opponent's shield you would be knocked back more then him and open to hit for longer, so he will be in advantage. Of course even koncked back you could still move slightly to avoid counterattack. So fights 1 vs 2 would be very hard and you will rely more on cooperation.


Sounds like too much going on for a single sword fight. The screen would have to zoom way in for the players to do the sword fight. And archers would be able to fire long distances into unwary sword fighting soldiers. But this cannot be a DLC. Probably RWR 4?

Arysto wrote:
make quiet assasination


Ok, you probably are really new to RWR. Stealth doesn't work in RWR. See my playthrough for MvW (veteran difficulty): viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3478

Arysto wrote:
FOV would let some lighter soldiers attack from the back


FoV doesn't yet work correctly. The fact that enemy bots see 360 degrees already breaks the FoV game mechanic. See viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1612&start=10#p18717

Your ideas are fantastic, by the way. I paid peanuts for RWR. I would expect to pay $100 (with DLCs) at least for a game like what you described.


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:41 pm 
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I didn't say that goal of maps would be siege of castle but that maps could be siege of castle, that means the map could show a siege, but actual game don't have to base on that theme, it's only the way to show why the battle exist? I don't know, i thought that 2 sides must have a conflict to fight, so you wouldn't rather let your enemy in the castle and then fight, because it's stupid. On the other hand fighting in the middle of nowhere would be extremely boring. So I though that that scene would be perfect for that type of game, but it's just my opinion. And it doesn't mean that you have to defend hole castle from your enemy, you can defend one tower, when the other tower is captured by you enemy, do you see where this is going? But even if it would be a siege, it doesn't mean that it would be bad, because like I said it would be DLC OR different game with different mechanics, so it might be a thing and putting down defending force to hold ground might be possible.

I don't know what are you arguing about in second paragraph so I will just skip it.

Third one is the same.

I know that RWR don't have that mechanics, but like i said about 3 times already that would be different game or DLC so it might have different mechanics from classic RWR.

I know that melee fights are different but it doesn't mean that they can't be played in RWR style. I can show you another game where you don't need to zoom in to fight https://store.steampowered.com/app/2198 ... hurs_Gold/
Fight in RWR is very fast, you die a lot, because game is developed in this way, so RWS would probably be developed in such a way that it would be as fast as RWR, so you run, you kill one guy and you die, and again, until you grab an armor and can kill 3 guys, or you grab some friends and you kill whole army. And archers wouldn't be immune to other archers, so they can't stay still and just shoot to unwary soldiers because they would be easy to be shot first from the other side, and shooting while running isn't as accurate especially with a bow.

I'm not new to RWR and stealth does work for me, probably because I know how to do it? You say that when AI is alerted they have 360 degree angle of sight, but that just means that they are looking for you, and what are you doing when you are looking for something? You look around.... AROUND. Basically the point of stealth is to not alert anyone. Try it.

FOV is what it is because developers wanted it to be this way, not because it's broken. Making a game playable and fun always means making many compromises, not only with different mechanics but often with hardware. AI with FOV always on would probably make it incredibly dumb and in most games AI knows exactly where you are from the beginning of match. It's one of developers tricks to make AI simple and smart enough to face with players. Also it's usually compromise with hardware, because believe it or not, not everyone has a supercomputer that can handle all computations required to do what you expect in real time. Would you buy a core i9 just to play RWR? Probably not. There are lots of units that are handled by the AI, and if it gets more complicated the computing power required increases quickly.

Just one more thing about FOV. Game was designed that everyone sees everything in a particular range, and FOV was added recently, so don't expect that game will change dramatically after one update, there is much more balancing work to do with the AI, and maybe implementing much more complicated algorithms so the AI won't acts dumb.

Despite our skepticism about our opinions, thanks for appreciating my idea. Maybe if there will be more people that would love to play such game, the developers will see an opportunity and use this idea, and we will be able to play that game. Win win situation :D


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:13 pm 
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My 2nd section is about a proposed new feature in future: Shooting while holding the riot shield.

There is a lot of talk about improving RWR. I'm not skeptical, by the way. I'm just realistic. With the amount of money (very little) that I paid for RWR, I realistically expect improvements to come slowly.

Arysto wrote:
I'm not new to RWR and stealth does work for me, probably because I know how to do it? You say that when AI is alerted they have 360 degree angle of sight, but that just means that they are looking for you, and what are you doing when you are looking for something? You look around.... AROUND. Basically the point of stealth is to not alert anyone. Try it.


I would really love to see a video of you playing stealth in RWR!

I've completed the Veteran "Man vs World" campaign (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3478), but I have not at all been able to use stealth. Yes, I do use stealth as much as possible, until the screen gets 3 or more AI bots, and the crowd starts FoV-ing the whole screen such that there is nowhere I can step undetected.

In multiplayer, stealth "seems to work" simply because enemy bots prioritize only 1 target, which leaves the non-targeted human players free to "stealth" their way around towards main objectives. Even this youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRbY9_Up3nE) mistakes "distraction" for stealth. Watch how the enemy bots immediately fire upon the player as the player emerges to shoot.

If you record your playthrough and play it back real slow, you will see that the AI bots are merely distracted. Try it solo, and you will see the AI bots come around the covers/corners to look for you. Notice how the youtube I pointed to has enemy bots scampering around all the time? Distracted, not stealthed out.


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 5:01 pm 
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But this topic isn't about improving RWR.

Obviously you won't take enemy base just with stealth (it's possible, but you have to disable enemy spawns), and you won't be able to kill bigger groups of enemies without exposing, but it's possible if you are quick and clever. You have to wait for right moment, when there are 1-3 enemies separated from others you can even kill them with knife if you start to approach them in right time, but you can take one with knife and shoot other 2 with your stealth weapon before they shoot and alert other. You can also take silent sniper rifle and just kill enemies from distance and they will never know.

I'm not into making videos of me playing games and I often modify them to better suits my preferences. If you like stealth missions you can make it easier by changing detectability of your camouflage.


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:25 am 
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jonwong wrote:
I've completed the Veteran "Man vs World" campaign (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3478), but I have not at all been able to use stealth. Yes, I do use stealth as much as possible, until the screen gets 3 or more AI bots, and the crowd starts FoV-ing the whole screen such that there is nowhere I can step undetected.


There is not a single stealth weapon in MvsW, therefore it should be rather hard to go stealth in this mode, at least with a gun ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:22 am 
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Arysto wrote:
Maybe if there will be more people that would love to play such game, the developers will see an opportunity and use this idea, and we will be able to play that game.


Ok, back on (your) topic.

I haven't yet been able to figure out how to do RWS using existing RWR mechanics. But I do like the RWS idea.

One thing in RWR is cover/suppressing fire. You'll notice that you can squeeze off single shots at enemy bots and force them to run back to cover, thereby preventing them from shooting at your allies. What does that mean? Your suppressing fire lets your allies do any of the following safely and successfully:

  • Move up (gain ground) to cover that is nearer to objective (next capture point)
  • Move up to grenade enemies out of cover.

RWR's main aim is about gaining ground and holding ground, but is unfortunately missing a major game mechanic to aid in that main aim. See my "Outposts" suggestion at: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3475

I'm not sure how RWS would facilitate that fantastic game mechanic of suppressing fire. How does 1 swordsman cause many enemy swordsmen to run back and hide behind cover?

The best implementation of RWS I can think of is a MOBA, where hero characters with flashy powers turn the tide of battle wherever they're at.

Already, RWR is more a MOBA than an open-world game. The main AI activity is "running along fixed paths to the next designated objective". Sadly, the main player activity is also similarly limited. Perhaps if RWR started out as RWS, this current MOBA design in RWR would have served much better.


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:36 am 
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JackMayol wrote:
jonwong wrote:
I've completed the Veteran "Man vs World" campaign (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3478), but I have not at all been able to use stealth. Yes, I do use stealth as much as possible, until the screen gets 3 or more AI bots, and the crowd starts FoV-ing the whole screen such that there is nowhere I can step undetected.


There is not a single stealth weapon in MvsW, therefore it should be rather hard to go stealth in this mode, at least with a gun ;)


That shouldn't prevent the lone ranger from sneaking around undetected. Even in multiplayer PoE, the 1st rule of stealth is to avoid contact, which also means avoid killing enemy soldiers that are not directly hindering our current objective. (The reason for that, which many players intuitively know but few players have mentioned, is that there really isn't stealth in RWR. Once the enemy bots are alerted, stealth is no longer an option for the foreseeable future. That is, you either start the entire stealth mission from the beginning, or you do a full-on shoot-out.)

The FoV system in RWR is just not suited for a real stealth game. Yes, RWR is merely a fun sandbox where we can see rather smart AI bots playing out a full-blown battle MOBA style (not open world style). And the price of RWR fully justifies that limitation.

Want to go stealth with a knife? Try even stepping into non-FoV areas in a screen of 3 enemy bot. Heck, don't talk about knife yet. Just try to sneak around undetected.

Lots of game mechanics already preclude the ability to do stealth game mechanics properly, eg the insta-look insta-turn mechanic. (No, don't remove that for enemy bots, because players can insta-look.) There is also the "noise" source mechanic that is very unlike real-life. Sound occlusion will mean that a soldier running north and rounding a corner towards west will have his footsteps chase west slower than the soldier is running west. That means enemy bots should think the target is less west than it really is (ie, closer to the corner than in reality). This allows players to quickly run further away from that corner and exit from a failed stealth attempt.

Yes, granted, all that logic would mean RWR should cost $40, not $5. I would hope to see better features in RWR 2, not in RWR 1.


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 Post subject: Re: Running with Swords
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:26 pm 
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the AI isn't aware of any sounds but weapon/explosion sounds only.
Stealth is absolutely doable, just not in man vs world because as I said before, there are no stealth weapons in MvsW. Theoretically, you could play through the MvsW campaign by using only knife. Very unlikely to never be spotted though and it would take a lot of time (crawling, using the advantage of night, etc). Yes stealth indeed exists in RWR, even if it has not been a main focus in the development, as e.g. the AI can't stealth themselves and the stealth mechanics aren't that deep as they would be in a game where stealth would be a main task. RWR is NOT a stealth game but does it fairly well nonetheless, imo.
As for vanilla, if you mess up a stealth attempt by being detected, just get in cover for a while (a couple of seconds) and the AI will be "resetted" to non-alerted. In most situations you can pick up the AI one by one without being detected. If the base has a radar tower, it's of course another situation and should be much harder to have a successful stealth mission.

PS: Funny to call RWR a MOBA btw, first time I've ever heard this :)


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