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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:02 am 
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DISCLAIMER: As I write this, I'm getting increasingly worried that the tone of this post is going to come off as obnoxious and/or overly confrontational. This is not my intention. It is difficult to make one's tone of voice come off correctly in purely written form, so whenever you read something that comes off as dickish, please try to imagine me communicating it in the nicest way possible.

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I really, really don't "get" the two new "KotH"-maps, or what you're trying to do with them.

I would have assumed that the entire function and purpose of three-faction battles was to break up the slight monotony of only ever fighting one enemy on one front. It makes for more dynamic battles, gives each game a slight "wild card"-element, and most of all, it's just fun to have a three-way gunfight break out at a choke point, or to consciously wait while your two enemies smack each other about over some strategic location before you make an effort to go in and mop up the pieces.

The two new three-faction only -maps completely and utterly negates this.

For those who haven't yet tried the new version, I'd like to explain that both maps are focused around having one faction sandwiched between two opposing factions. In practice, this means that one single faction will only ever fight one single faction, head on. Both Green and Grey will only ever fight Brown, never at any point coming in contact with each other. Eventually, Brown will get squashed by the two others, at which point they will proceed to fight each other over the remains of Brown's base. Alternatively, Brown will be able to hold off both enemies, sallying forth to fight them on their own territories, separate from each other. In either case, it never feels like you are playing a three-faction match as you only ever see one enemy faction at a time.

Just to clarify; I do not object to the fact that these maps exist. They are quite unlike the others in execution, to a point where they almost make for a whole new gametype in themselves. This is not a bad thing. Variation and alternative is always good, and the more ways to play one game, the better. I'm not saying that I have some irrational desire to see the maps removed from the game. I'm just expressing my puzzlement and disappointment that the first maps made solely for the purpose of being played with three sides, (literally - it is currently impossible to play either map with less than three factions. This is a bit of a shame, as I can see Insular Complex in particular as being an interesting smaller two-faction match with a few minor adjustments.), is made in such a way that it completely destroys the sense of fighting two independent factions. At all times, you are only fighting one enemy, and they are only fighting you. That is not my idea of a three-faction match.

So my question is: Do you plan to release more three-faction -centric maps in the future? If so, I would personally hope you had geared them more towards allowing all three factions to simultaneously interact with each other as opposed to keeping them separated.

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By the way; just out of curiosity - do you ever plan to enable four-faction gameplay?


Last edited by Lusketrollet on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:40 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:52 am 
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The focus on the new maps is not to be 3-faction maps but so that a faction is defending against the enemy and succeed if they hold the "hill" long enough. Having it 3 factions just adds some tactical aspect as you 1) can time your hill attack so that you might start your main attacks at the same time as the other attacking faction to weaken the hill faction the most effectively, 2) You can try to cut the flow of the other attacking faction by planning a sneaky attack on their comms truck (wake island) and 3) you have to choose weather you should aim at the enemy attackers or the defending faction when you face boths (and yes it happens often enough, at least for me), it completely depends on the situation. Also yesterday, while I was playing Wake Island I sneaked up to northern airfield bunker to try to disable the spawning point of the brown army and there was a guy from the other attacking army there (it was Modest I guess :) ) who had the same idea, so that we ended sneaking in the foliage against each other until we started to exchange a few shots.
Also the 2 new maps can easily be made for PvP/pure PvP/assault and invasion on top of KotH and that will most likely happen.
Anyway, for myself I think that KotH is pretty interesting. It requires a higher tactical approach as attacking without flanking won't help much. It also brings you directly into some action (especially Insular which is pure action all the time).
The next map will also be a KotH map but a bit different, as you will have 3 attacking factions and the hill will start as neutral. Also the hill will be much bigger, e.g. large scale KotH and again it should also be playable as other mode.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:20 am 
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Yea, there's some truth in the post, I think the maps are designed for 2-faction battles primarily, just that Browns happen to be there at the start. Is it good/bad Browns are there?

Having Browns there, it makes the battle two phased. At the start, Greens and Greys "ally" to attack their common enemy Brown, and when Brown gets out the way, it's time for the final fight. It's not really KOTH as I'd think KOTH is, but KOTH is the closest thing that comes to mind.

Nothing wrong about 2-faction 3-base battles as such, we haven't had any good maps for PvP that wouldn't make the players split too much. One alternative would be to make Browns neutral unmanned faction in these two maps in the future -- and especially remove the spawn points the center base has, which is what JackMayol was referring to I think.

Or, Wake Island could have another island 'wing' for Browns. This way all the factions would remain alive through the whole match and the faction holding the center would fight against two enemies. The upcoming map is laid out like this tho, so that's a real 3-faction KOTH map, probably Wake Island can stay as it is.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:31 am 
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Yes, it was me ;)

Well, the way I see King of the Hill is also not so much three way fight, but rather two weak against one strong, with the necersity of watching the other weak guy, so he will not became too strong suddenly (by capturing middle ground - the Hill). Also I can easily confirm that fighting betwen green and gray happens a lot (once I was grey, and saw green player - not bot, but player, and decided to approach peacefully as I rekognised brown as my main enemies, but He had other idea and I finished with bullet betwen my eyes - from that moment I started to open fire first at greens, than at brown :D). While I do not like KotH as much as Cooperative Invasion and normal gameplay I still like it a lot :)


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:10 am 
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removing the spawn points at the hill might be an option (when the timer for the factions will be seen constantly and when the timers aren't resetting once the other faction capture the hill, but rather freeze it until it's captured back. This would then be a 2-factions battle, not sure what would be the best option. I kinda like how it is right now, playing brown is fun and challenging as you are attacked from everywhere (should at least.. only Modest was actually trying to flank/backdoor inside the base).
The actual mode is more a kind of "domination" mode than a KotH as it is right now. The other option would be interesting as well, sure.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Lusketrollet wrote:
By the way; just out of curiosity - do you even plan to enable four-faction gameplay?


Possibly, mostly it depends if the campaign will need a fourth faction, currently it would seem that it doesn't.

With mods it's possible of course. I had a 6-faction match going on using Never ending weapon armory.


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